Buying

Buying a restored or polished watch
Such a fun topic…is it “OK” to buy a watch that has been restored or polished? The answer: Yes Provided: It’s disclosed! Points of terminology…a “restoration” involves working on a watch to return it to it’s prior (usually original) appearance and functionality (if work is required). “Polishing” on the other hand is more of a surface-level enhancement to pretty the watch up. There is nothing “wrong” with purchasing a restored or polished watch, provided it is fully disclosed. Some collectors may care one way or another, and any prior work done to the watch may impact the price. Does it matter, though? Well, taking the long view, many watches at some point in their life will need some help – perhaps a replaced component, lume falls out of hands or detaches from the dial, maybe the case has taken such abuse it needs laser welding, etc. For some, it is enough to have a watch that looks appealing (and period-correct…or not, if preferred). For others who want the watch to be in it’s original (non-altered) state when they purchase, that’s OK too. It is of course extremely difficult to know in some cases whether a watch has been altered (and not disclosed). Watchmakers are getting more skillful at welding/refinishing cases, including adding back serial numbers, cleaning dials, replacing lume, copying bracelets, and so forth. All truly a shame. The biggest shame of it all really is that, if everyone was simply honest about the history, none of this would be such a big deal. For those don’t spend their time deep in the watch community, it is more difficult to understand the reluctance of watchmakers or dealers to talk about restoration work. One example is the ‘Dialed In’ podcast with Mike Hui of Rollieworks. He isn’t different than any other watchmaker or dealer in that you can hear the hesitation (likewise from the host) in providing information on how to tell if there has been work done on a watch, reluctance to tell an owner when he believes their watch has been modified without their knowledge (that gives a pass to the watchmaker that is taking advantage of others). The community is so tight, that the result is that most involved won’t ever “out” another watchmaker or dealer, unfortunately assuming that they may get blacklisted from working with others and their business will be impacted as a result. The solution, of course, is if everyone simply told the truth and was forthcoming, there wouldn’t be these issues (which again, will never happen). The best we can do is find a couple of individuals that we trust, and work with them as much as possible.
What is a vintage watch?

There is no firm rule here, but the term “vintage” generally refers to a period starting at least 20 years ago. I find that most collectors, when using the term “vintage”, are referring to watches made in the 1980s or earlier. I personally use the term to refer to pieces from the mid-1970s and earlier.

Some people use the word “antique” in reference to timepieces, most often in describing pieces from the 1920s and earlier. Personally, I lump those together under a broad classification as “vintage”.

Where to buy a vintage watch

To search for watches, I follow and visit:
– forums,
– dealers (both brick-and-mortar and online),
– auction houses,
– eBay,
– Instagram,
– jewelry and antique stores, and even
Goodwill.

Over time you may develop relationships, or knowledge of, specific sellers, and whether you are comfortable purchasing from them. If you start working with dealers, it is generally best to pick one or two with whom you would like to work, and focus on those. You would likely receive differing opinions on watches as often dealers like to talk smack about each other’s timepieces, so that may muddy the waters. In addition, dealers trade amongst themselves, so you aren’t limited to the breadth of just a single dealer’s ability to source pieces separate of the rest of the dealer community.

Some dealers and independent sellers leverage multiple channels, offering watches both on their own website, marketplaces, IG and on eBay. And after sitting on a watch for some time, dealers may post on eBay in an auction format. So if you have found the perfect watch, make sure to double-check other channels for pricing, which may vary.

My preferences for purchases are through a few specific dealers, as well as auction houses. Having said that, one of my favorite watches was purchased on eBay as a ‘Buy It Now’ (we actually made an offer below the BIN price that was accepted) from a dealer of all types of vintage goods. And another on eBay was purchased from an individual who sold everything from hunting bows to pots and pans. In both cases we did all the research we could on the sellers, made sure we knew the watch references well, requested a number of additional images and asked questions, and had a very good sense for the market value of the watches (from researching forums, blogs, eBay, auction houses, and dealer websites). Do I recommend eBay? Not for most – I was both very lucky with one watch that worked out, and the other…turned out to be a multi-year headache to eventually get repaired, and then sold thereafter.

Researching a vintage watch before purchasing

The seller
You may want to limit your purchasing to just dealers with brick and mortar locations so you can knock on their door. Or maybe you are fine with an online dealer. Or auction houses.

Also check out the FAQ on who to trust when buying a vintage watch.

What matters to you?
Figure out what matters to you. Do you need a watch in NOS (New Old Stock) condition? Do you even care if it has original parts? What if it has a beautiful-looking replacement dial? Is it polished? Hands? Does the strap matter? What if it was relumed? How easy will it be to find replacement parts when needed?

Time to research!

  • Know what the watch should look like: the text, the dial, hands, case, the movement, the case and caseback (see our Vintage Watch Resources section). Do your homework on the model and history. Find others of the same model that have previously sold. Read books. Find old manufacturer catalogs. Check images of the same reference online. Talk to other watch fans. Search, search, search the forums. Go through the basics – do the hands look as expected? The dial? Crown? Case? Walk through these one-by-one.
  • Does the watch even “look” right? This “sniff test” is one that I use more and more, as I start to focus less on the seller (though it is still key).
    • Is it a 60 year old watch that has not even a ding?
    • Is the bezel beat up but the case is perfect?
    • Does the dial show signs of water damage but the hands are perfect?
    • Does the lume just look too good for a watch of its age?
    • Does the hand lume match the dial lume?
    • Is the printing on the dial correct? (and make sure there are no errors, as we see in this example from Roman Rea with a misspelling on the dial (incredible that they sold that this as-is, without even referencing a redial…or error)
    • Does the serial/case number look to be etched correctly (consistent with other examples)
    • Are the brushstrokes on the case correct? (this is subtle)
  • What are the serial number/movement/case numbers (some watches may only have one number, some multiple, and they can appear in different locations). The seller should be willing to provide these. I would not buy a watch without knowing the serial or case number, unless I had a guarantee that I could return the watch. The seller may have a completely unnatural fear of someone stealing the serial number, engraving it perfectly on another watch, selling it online, someone else finding both the original correct watch with the number and the fake watch with the number, that person then would not be able to tell which is fake, and this will then call into question whether the watch that they offered for sale long ago was fake or not (which would have no impact on them, regardless). But I digress.
    Having the serial number allows you to:

    • Confirm against production date tables to ensure it is correct
    • Research if the watch has been previously sold, and if so, the sale price (to make sure you aren’t getting taken, or at least to provide a reference point) and the condition at time of prior sale(s)
    • The watch is stolen or is a forgery, and by providing the number you will be able to run a search and determine this (see the Alpha Hands stolen watch registry, for starters)
    • Some watches do NOT have a serial number. It is possible that it wore off over time from use, or overpolishing. These watches generally receive lower prices when sold, due to this lack of information. It’s not a dealbreaker for everyone, just keep in mind that when and if you sell the piece, that it does rule out a set of potential buyers. In addition, you will not be able to get an Extract.
    • If you aren’t a watchmaker, check the movement images versus others found online through an image search or using Ranfft Watches (unfortunately the images are rather small and can be of poor quality, but this resource can still be useful). Look at all the detail…are all the screws there? Any rust? Correcting stamping on the components?

    Requesting images
    If you are not able to inspect the watch in person, you will want to get all the images you can:

    • Movement photos, preferably multiple, with the rotor in different positions for automatic watches. There are lots of dealers who will push back on opening a caseback to provide images of the movement and inside caseback. Some will say they don’t have the right tool, some will say they don’t want to risk damaging the movement or case. However, every watch dealer, if they are not comfortable opening a caseback (understandable at times), should have a watchmaker at their disposal to assist them. I would not recommend purchasing a vintage watch without seeing movement images. You’ll never know what you might find…the movement scratched to bits…rust…swapped movement or parts… If you decide to press on with the purchase without pictures of the movement from the seller, then all you can do is make an educated guess based on the condition from the rest of the watch. So ask yourself: Does the dial look OK? Original crown and pushers? Crystal? Is the caseback not scratched up from someone trying to claw their way inside (if so, what does it look like on the inside)? And what level of risk are you willing to take?
    • Pictures of the dial under UV light (tritium, for example, has a half life of 12.3 years, so the lume on vintage pieces with tritium won’t glow brightly or for a long period of time as compared to other dials).
    • The watch from all angles, so you know exactly what you are getting

    Condition
    Regarding overall condition, and you have to decide how much these matter to you, if at all, consider:

    • Has the case been polished (are the lugs thinner than they should be? Are the lug holes for spring bars crisp at the edge, or are they rounded, possibly indicating polishing)
    • What is the lume condition on hands and dial?li>
    • Are the lume marks/dots (if any) still on the dial?
    • Does the movement show sign of rust or abuse? Any missing screws, heavy scratching, etc.?
    • Beware any signs of water in the watch. Some nice patina (aging) is fine, but water marks on the dial or lume that looks dirty can be a warning sign of damage to the movement as well. Movement photos will help provide information, but even then we have had watches that needed to be removed before we could see what rust issues were inside, and weren’t visible from the a movement picture.

    Help from others
    And for additional help (since everyone can use another opinion):

    • Post a request for feedback on a watch to forums.
      And thank all those community members that are generous enough to share their knowledge! Of course, the downside is someone might see the watch only through your post, know more about the watch than you do (more assuredly in our case), have the dollars at the ready, and snap it up themselves.
    • If there is an individual that has spent significant time researching that model, reach out to them. The watch community is filled with people who are generous with their time, and happy to help others. Just don’t take advantage of anyone’s kindess!
    • Get a Certificate of Authenticity, if available.
      There are a few manufacturers that will certify that your watch is original through a physical inspection and provide a Certificate of Authenticity. This differs from an Extract from the Archives, which provides production information and is generally based solely based on case and movement number, does not require physical inspection, and does not guarantee the authenticity of a watch or its components. I have heard secondhand of one company that actually knowingly authenticated pieces that weren’t correct, and boy do I hope that is that only case where that happened (one situation for a limited time). You can read more on details of the (significant) limitations of Extracts.

    Questions for the seller
    When you have found a watch of interest, feel free to ask the seller questions. When I first started getting into this crazy hobby, I would ask a slew of questions about the condition. It took quite some time to grasp that many sellers will flat-out lie, or conveniently neglect to mention important information.

    So while I might still ask questions like the below, I do it with a grain of salt, and often just to see how the seller will respond (especially if I already know the answer to one of the questions):

    • Have the hands or dial been replaced? Or refinished/redial/repaint/restored/washed?
    • Does the movement show any signs of rust? Scratches?
    • If on a bracelet, what are the markings on the bracelet (manufacturer, date of production, etc.)? Does it come with all links?
    • Where did the watch come from? The original owner? Another dealer? How long has the seller owned the watch and why are they selling?
    • What is its service history? What was done to the watch and who was the watchmaker?
    • Is it keeping time (how much time does the watch gain or lose in 24 hours)? How long does it run when fully wound?
    • Does the selling believe all the parts are original to the watch? (never blindly believe the seller answer – I like to ask just to see how they respond, and if they call out something I might have otherwise missed)

    Sellers may modify in any number of ways, some mentioned above. Those changes aren’t necessarily “bad”, and you may not even care, but it should always be disclosed. And this is one area in which the business is notoriously poor.

    For context, here is a nice quote from Ben Clymer from Hodinkee (from the Hodinkee Radio podcast with Eric Wind, Episode 75, starting at 1hr 10m):
    “I would guess that three dealers in Italy have touched more than half of, say, the 1518s yellow in the world…And so, if those guys are into fixing up cases or polishing or whatever for ten years of their career, then 50% of those watches have issues and have had some work done to it.
    And the idea of dial-swapping, you have a killer unpolished 6241 regular dial, and then you find an amazing 6239 Paul Newman, put the dial into the 6241, and that’s just what people did.” [some might say do]
    We know those watches are in the market, we know it still happens, but if people found out they would freak out, they would explode…[if] they had a watch that has a dial swapped on. If they really knew what was happening over the past 20 years, they would be shocked.”

    So just keep in mind that even if sellers say “mint condition” or “original”, they might be omitting information or stretching the truth. ‘Trust but verify’ is the key (or just ‘verify’, if you prefer). Oh, and generally speaking, “lightly polished” or “previously polished” = polished (sometimes a LOT). “Original condition” for some sellers simply means that has period-correct parts, though they might be swapped from other pieces. “Mint condition” to me usually means that the watch has been polished to look like new. Not my thing, but you might not mind. Again, just as long as it is disclosed.

    Manufacturer information
    For some pieces you may be able to obtain information from the manufacturer on the production history of the watch (production date, where first sold or destination, case/movement numbers, etc.). And for a fee you can also request a ‘Extract from the Archives’ (note, not the same as a ‘Certificate of Authenticity’) from some manufacturers as well.

Vintage watch pricing

Once you’ve targeted a watch (or what the heck…a bunch of watches!), you’ll need to figure out whether to pay the asking price or what to bid/offer. And don’t assume that regardless of what you pay for the watch, it will be worth more when you decide to sell it. And you’ve heard this a million times: if a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Researching sale prices
Don’t get so caught up in the moment that you don’t step back and research the market price for the watch.

Good sources for finding market or comparable price points include:
– Auction houses that post their results (for major houses, this will happen only for auctions that are held in person; online-only auctions may not display final sale prices). If you are searching specific past lots, make sure to note whether the lot successfully sold, and if so, to include the buyer’s premium as well.
– eBay. As with auction houses, you’ll want to see watches that both sold (you can use both ‘Completed Listing’ and ‘Sold Listing’) and those that did not successfully sell, as reference.
– Forums. You may not know the final sale price for those offered, but likely close.
– Dealers. Some dealers continue to shown their asking prices after the watches were sold, though of course final prices may be lower than shown. If we look to dealers for comparables when buying, we factor in up to a 20% discount. Don’t forget taxes if applicable.
– Books. The Complete Price Guide to Watches 2017 by Cooksey Shugart, Tom Engle & Richard E. Gilbert is one option. We have never used this book to research prices, however. With some prices moving very quickly, it is difficult to believe that a book would be better than researching the latest sales online. Maybe useful in conjunction, but not alone.
– Online guides. Some websites, such as Gallet World and the Vintage Heuer Price Guide, offer estimates. These may provide starting points, but should always be supplemented with additional research.

Which sales channel has the best vintage watch prices?
Prices vary for each channel, and you see both low and high prices on forums, eBay and auction houses (there are tons of auction houses worldwide, both large and small, that sell vintage pieces). Looking across all sellers, you will likely see highest prices from dealers, particularly those will brick-and-mortar locations. That’s not a reason not to purchase from a dealer, however. Perhaps they have a watch that is hard to find, in great condition, or you appreciate the comfort that comes from a retail store (their guarantees, return policy, etc.). Most individual sellers and dealers, even big-name with brick-and-mortar retail locations, are willing to negotiate on price, so it never hurts to make a counteroffer. If you never ask, you’ll never know.

The most important factors are that you trust the seller, and you have done thorough research to understand what you are buying.

Don’t forget to add service costs
Unless we see a receipt for a recent service for any watch we purchase, we assume that the watch we are buying will require a service at a minimum, and cross our fingers that no expensive repair is needed (don’t forget to ask about how the watch is running before purchase, and also any return policy). We have purchased more than one watch advertised as running and in excellent condition, only to have it wind up in service shortly after receipt.

If you think there is a chance you’ll need to service the watch, and you won’t be performing the service yourself (and given we have only taken HSNY’s Watchmaking 101-104, we won’t be doing any servicing on our own anytime soon), you will want to consider what additional costs you may have for service and/or repairs when determining how much to pay. Servicing a watch doesn’t come cheap, and the more complications or rare a piece, the more dollars you may want to set aside.

You don’t need to buy a watch with Box and Papers (B&P)

Do you need to have box and papers with your watch? Absolutely not.

“Box and Papers” (B&P) refer to the original box that the watch was delivered in, and a variety of items, including original purchase receipt, certificates of authenticity/origin, manual/instruction booklet, warranty/guarantee card, and even hang tag (the little tag that is attached to the strap of new watches). Owners may also have kept service papers over time, decommission papers for military watches, and so on. “Extracts from the Archives” are of course not included at the time of purchase, so will be called out separately from B&P in offers. “Certificates of Authenticity” may be provided at the time of purchase, and included with B&P, or may be ordered (depending on manufacturer) later.

To find a vintage watch with (original) box and papers is exceedingly rare, so don’t expect to find these being sold with the watch you are purchasing…ever. And if they are, the inclusion doesn’t guarantee the authenticity of the vintage watch you are purchasing. Do a quick search on eBay for loose boxes and papers, then guess out where they go. Correct – they get paired with watches and then sold as sets. While box and papers included in a sale of a set may not be original to that specific watch, the accessories may still add to the appeal for many collectors. As vintage watch dealer Eric Wind says about those that ask for only watches with box and papers, “…it’s like having a sign on your back, instead of it saying ‘Kick Me’, it says ‘Rip Me Off.’ Because so many of the box and paper sets are put together, or added after, that’s not the criteria that you look for first…you look at the condition of the watch, then the provenance, and then it’s a nice thing if it has box and papers, not the first thing you look for.”

Unless there is provenance for the watch (and B&P), I am indifferent to whether vintage watches come with box and papers. While it will add value to most sales, and may make it easier to sell a package when the time comes, to me those don’t provide additional enjoyment or satisfaction in the interim. Plus the boxes and papers just take up more space. Now, if we had a watch room where I could display these items, I might feel differently.

Who to trust when buying a watch

Who to trust? Nobody! Just follow the rules for buying watches in order to stay safe.

“Over the last 20 or 30 years, information has been controlled by a small amount of people and that’s changing now…More people are sharing, but they’re also sharing inaccurate information. That’s where it’s still “Let the buyer beware” more than ever before…” – John Reardon, Christie’s.

Many say “buy the seller,” believing that if an auction house, dealer, or fellow collector is well-known enough that they can be trusted unconditionally. Unfortunately, many collectors (and even dealers) have found out the hard way that this mantra can’t blindly be followed.

The best all-encompassing read is the story of the franken “Unicorn”, in which Perezcope breaks down the sale of the unique white gold Rolex Daytona 6265. Call it what you want, but lets leave it as a lack of transparency by all parties. This story includes a collector, dealer, auction house, and the watch media. It highlights that you…well…can’t trust anyone in this business. Not well-known dealers, not the most respected collectors, not the largest and most prestigious auction houses, and not the watch media.

The only reason this all came to light was due to a post on instagram, where photos showed that the watch didn’t begin as was presented for auction. After this, the collector/seller and auction house provided their side of the story, and the watch media remained quiet, lest they rock the boat. Incredibly disappointing to say the least.

So what to do when buying? Tops on anyone’s list of considerations is provenance of the watch. Do you know whether it has been traded among dealers or sold multiple times at auction houses, passed around like a hot potato? Or is it new to the market, coming from the original owner (or family of the original owner)? Even if it does come from the original owner/family, it doesn’t mean that you should blindly take their word as to the history of the watch – whether it has been serviced, if parts have been swapped, etc. – often the owner or family member simply won’t have knowledge of details (and we wouldn’t expect that the current owner of a watch handed down between generations would know if their great-grandfather brought the watch in for service and had it polished 60 years ago).

Dealers
Depending on what you are purchasing, eventually it likely makes sense to start establishing relationships with one or two dealers with whom you are comfortable and trust. While that sounds straightforward, even well-known dealers are involved in lawsuits around bad watches, and sadly it isn’t uncommon that dealers intentionally do not share information with prospective buyers. And for all those that have been sued, many more should be: there are dealers that scrap old cases and reuse serial numbers for new cases, swap parts, relume and repaint dials…and either not disclose what has happened to the watch, or simply lie about its background. If you want to modify watches it’s your prerogative, but if you do make a change and don’t disclose it = not OK! And depending on the dealer, some will stand by their watches and some don’t, which tells you what they think of the pieces they are selling. To make a point, consider inquiring as to whether the dealer will help in selling the watch later if you decide to move on (or ask other collectors that have a relationship with the dealer).

If you want some additional transaction protection, you may wish to purchase through an online platform such as Chrono24, assuming the watch is available there in addition to the dealer site/instagram. You may see prices differ based upon the channel, but don’t hesitate to negotiate on either (note that Chrono24 will charge a dealer 6.5% on the sale, and anecdotally it appears that prices on Chrono24 are about ~20% above where watches are trading). Some watches will be posted at the same price on Chrono24 and the dealer website, and if the dealer is well-known, you may still see a benefit by purchasing through Chrono24 due to the ability to use a credit card for travel points (and if looking for a card, I recommend the American Express Platinum, albeit a high annual fee, you can get those dollars back due to all the benefits – full disclosure: that link goes to a referrer page where I would get some points if anyone signs up).

Read examples of lawsuits between collectors and dealers.

Auction houses
While you might expect that all information is disclosed to buyers, think again. Even with all the pictures in hand, if can take a practiced eye to spot issues with watches that are described as “incredibly well-preserved”. ALWAYS get a condition report, but even then know it may not include all details. Check out a list of frankens at auction.

While auction houses do provide a great opportunity to look at a large number of pieces before bidding, this also presents a downside as well. As watches travel during previews between locations, and are handled again, and again, and again, invariably there are pieces that were damaged prior to the auction. So while the catalog picture provides a starting point, there is always the change that by the time the auction starts that a dial has cracked, a lume plot has exploded or fallen off, or functions no longer are working as noted. The auction house should provide an update or call issues out to prospective bidders, but won’t always.

Lastly, one point to consider at the different auction houses is the number of pieces that are coming from original owners. As dealer pieces start to dominate auction sales, we need to think about why the dealer watch is at auction at all. The correct answer: they weren’t able to sell the watch on their own (if they could, they wouldn’t have to pay the seller’s premium to the auction house), so off it goes. One common reason for an inability to sell is due to issues with the watch.

And speaking of where the watch comes from…the auction houses may not even do the research to know if the watch has been stolen (such as in this example of Antiquorum selling a stolen watch), so always do a search of serial numbers online and in stolen watch registries before purchasing.

There are interesting relationships between auction houses and manufacturers, as we have seen most clearly with Antiquorum and Omega in 2007. As a collector would you want to know that Omega was bidding against you on one of the estimated 80 lots on which they bid (of 300 in the auction, including those that Omega provided specifically for the sale)? You would, but I would never expect to know that I am bidding against a manufacture on a piece, as they would not want it known that they are a bidder, which would likely drive up the bidding. However, in a case where the manufacture has either provided the pieces for the auction, or has no intention of buying pieces, is it ethically acceptable for them to bid? I leave that for others… Undoubtedly it is good press for Omega when you hear one of their vintage pieces sold for $351,000…or $3.1m CHF – just keep in mind they may be conveniently excluding the fact that they were the buyer.

Read on for examples of lawsuits between collectors and auction houses.

Private sellers and lesser-known dealers
If you don’t know the seller personally (dealer or individual), search forums for reputation feedback. This holds whether the seller is on a forum, eBay, or a dealer site (and sometimes you can even read dealer feedback of another, such as Menta Watches’ review of his experience with Rare Vintage Watch).

If you can’t find any feedback on the seller, ask on forums if anyone has dealt with them before. And even if the seller isn’t advertising on a particular forum, that community can often still help. Some forums have a section dedicated to reputation, such as watchuseek’s ‘Feedback & Reputation’ sticky And take note, even a perfect eBay feedback score, great reputation, references, or the fact the seller is a large auction house doesn’t guarantee anything. Sadly, fakes are getting better and better all the time. The last thing you want to do is drop $52k on a franken Omega 2998-2 on eBay, right?

Unfortunately, on instagram, where we see an increasing number of these reviews of sellers, it is difficult to search for comments in a systematic way.

It’s useful to remember that there is a reason the collector is selling, and whether you’ll get an honest answer isn’t really known. They may likely have information about the watch that you don’t, and, if you do sell one day, aren’t going to be one to help you as a dealer would/might.

Read on for examples of squabbles between collectors and with lesser-known dealers.

Manufactures
And if you think you can blindly trust the manufacture, sadly you’ll find that isn’t the case either, as we can see most blatantly in the case of the Omega Speedmaster sold for 3.1m CHF at Phillips in November 2021. It’s disappointing, but as mentioned in the Alpha Hands Extracts and Certificates section, insiders such as Ben Clymer, founder of Hodinkee, recognize that you need to treat information from the manufacture with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Third parties
Lastly, you might turn to a third party to be your resource of choice, believing them to be unbiased and without fault in their work. If so, you are going to be disappointed when you find that even the largest watch publications highlight their favorite auction houses and timepieces they sell. Hodinkee’s Bring a Loupe (BAL) may be a place to start a search, but always take a closer look.

So never purchase based upon one recommendation, but dig in more – reach out to the community and read comments, research in books and online, and do everything you can to see the piece in person. Forums are a great place to start to tap into the knowledge of other collectors, and the collective wisdom of the group, but this is no guarantee either. There are many individuals with great knowledge who are willing to share information (don’t be scared off if you are new – many people are more than willing to help), but many more that don’t have a clue of what they are talking about (while professing themselves as experts).

Purchasing a vintage watch from a dealer or individual

The below is in the context of purchasing a watch from a collector/individual/dealer. I am willing to overlook some of the below, of course, depending on what kind of existing relationship I have with the seller.

Some suggestions to avoid losing your hard-earned dollars:
Payment
– Don’t pay by wire or personal check. EVER. There are tons of stories on the boards about people burned by paying via wire transfers. Go read them. Then try to find stories of people getting taken when paying by credit card (and send me those if you find any).

I use forms of payment where I consider myself to be (more) protected against situations where watches either never show up, or are other than described. Yes, this results in letting some watches pass us by, but we find that even (reputable) sellers saying “wire transfer only” are often are willing to be flexible on form of payment. For example, paying by credit card using PayPal (and NOT sending payment as a “gift” just to avoid fees). Right or not, I feel like there is additional recourse if something goes wrong. Even if the seller demands an additional X% to cover the resulting PayPal fees, it worth it for peace of mind. Plus…miles! If seller asks for additional dollars to cover that payment, you should ask if they are willing to share or split the amount, as sellers have done for me in the past.

– If you are still unsure about PayPal and credit card funding, it is possible to step up to the next level and use an escrow service (which generally have reasonable costs for the insurance they provide). This is absolutely a rarity, but provides a way to ensure you receive the watch. Now, you can run into issues depending on the condition, as we sell in discussions around the Chrono24 escrow service in forums.

– If you are looking for additional purchase protection and there are different channels through which to purchase, such as a dealer Instagram account (as simple as via DM) or website, and online platforms such as Chrono24, consider purchasing through a platform that provides additionally protection for you as a buyer.

Trustworthiness
– If you are looking at a watch posted for sale on a forum, remember that it is possible that a reputable seller’s account has been hacked and a scammer is posting a watch for sale (often at a too-good-to-be-true price). This doesn’t happen frequently, but it does occur. And if you send a wire to someone other than who you think it is, you can kiss your hard-earned dollars goodbye.

– People say “buy the seller”. Sadly, you can generally never do that either, as chances are you most likely don’t really know the seller (just like all those buyers who thought they ‘knew’ Horology House, as an example). So always research all you can on the seller (even set up a phone call or meet in person, it doesn’t all have to be on WhatsApp) – never simply “buy the seller.”

There will always be cases of sellers that have sterling reputations, where the buyer didn’t received what was advertised. I like this quote from Man on Time: be careful not to confuse prominence or standing within a community with integrity or trustworthiness. The biggest test when something goes wrong is…does the seller rectify the situation, or just walk away?

I’m not saying you will ever be able to guarantee a purchase without issues. On a personal note, I once purchased from an individual who I didn’t trust (!). As a result, I simply didn’t put any weight in the information he provided me (though I still asked them questions in order to see what I could learn and then layer that into my decision). Ultimately, I felt that it didn’t matter as I had done extensive research. I bought in person, had the opportunity to inspect what I was buying, and was comfortable with my decision.

Watch details
– Ask where the watch originated. The watch may have been shopped around dealer WhatsApp groups for a long time (not ideal usually), maybe purchased from an auction house, perhaps found via one of their pickers, or maybe bought back from a client.

– If the seller isn’t forthcoming with information, including the case/movement number, pass. This includes if someone brushes you off with a “refer to the pictures”. That gives some indication of the level of support they likely provide.

– Get a current photo of the watch to confirm the seller has it, set to a specific time you choose, or against today’s paper or with your email exchange in the background.

Prior to your purchase, make sure to save all the posts/images from the website for the watch (if there is one) along with the description of the watch, and any written exchange you have had with the seller. As these pieces of information could disappear at any time, always retain a backup copy.

Shipment
– Make sure when the watch is sent that tracking information is immediately emailed to you.

– If you do not have insurance for the watch, make sure it is sent fully insured. Some insurance companies do offer policies where watches in transit, even to you upon purchase, are insured (mind you, these policies aren’t inexpensive).

– If you want a specific shipper, like FedEx, make that clear. If cross-border, don’t ask the seller to reduce the declared value for custom reasons. Depending on the cost versus taxes to import, it may even make more sense to hop a flight to pick it up in person.

Post-sale Support
– Make sure there is a return policy. Or if there isn’t, consider paying with a credit card which, depending on the card, may offer purchase protection. Related, you’ll want to know the policy on return shipping (and insuring) and also if there are any fees for taking the piece back (run away if there is a “restocking” fee).

– You can also ask if the dealer is willing to help you resell the watch when (if) the time comes. There are those to really work to support their clients, and those that are more focused on the transaction but after that, you’re on your own.

It is safe to buy watches from sellers in other countries

Is it OK? Sure. We still simply follow the same rules as above.

There are many buyers that simply won’t purchase from certain countries (some in South America, the Far East, Eastern Europe…Italy). End of story. We aren’t that extreme, but as with any purchase, just make sure to do your homework.

Shipping caveats fall out of our area of knowledge. Just make sure to research so you understand what can’t be imported/exported from certain countries, including components such as straps that may include endangered animal material that can’t cross borders, and additional fees can be due for importing.

Manufacture Certified Pre-Owned Watches

A select few manufactures offer certified pre-owned watches for sale.

    Rolex
    The first to take this on was Rolex, introduced their Rolex Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) Programme in December 2022, and subsequently rolled out in the United States in May 2023. Their program, available through select boutiques (such as Tourneau | Bucherer locations, followed by Watches of Switzerland) that have the Rolex Certified Pre-Owned plaque, is available for watches more than 3 years old, and has a Rolex Certified Pre-Owned seal that comes with your watch to certify its status as a certified second-hand Rolex watch, and attests to its authenticity on the date of purchase and, in addition to functioning correctly, is accompanied by an international two-year guarantee. And to answer the question that you have…the prices are not determined by Rolex, but rather set by the Official Rolex reseller.

      Cartier

    In March 2023, Cartier entered the pre-owned market leveraging Watchfinder (like Cartier, a Richemont subsidiary), as it’s “official Pre-Owned partner.” Watchfinder will be in charge of the verification and authentication process for Cartier’s pre-owned watches, and buyers will benefit from a two-year warranty issued directly by Cartier. This is also tied to a Cartier part-exchange service in partnership with Watchfinder, available in selected boutiques, which allows collectors the opportunity to exchange any Cartier timepiece for a new timepiece.

      Chronoswiss

    Chronoswiss certified pre-owned watches offers collectors the change to purchase pieces no longer in production. These may be found exclusively on their online boutique.
    Each Chronoswiss certified pre-owned timepiece has had a complete service of the movement, with replace parts with original spare parts if necessary, and the external parts are meticulously polished. As with the warranty from other certified pre-owned programmes, Chronoswiss certified pre-owned watches carry an international two-year warranty.

How you know that a watch is original

See also our FAQ on authenicating a vintage watch and researching a vintage watch for sale

My definition of an “original” watch is one that hasn’t had any modifications from when it was first sold. No replaced parts (even if the same part from the same manufacture), no polishing, no relumed dial or hands. Just an honest watch with dings and dents, as opposed to a piece that was restored and polished to look like new. That’s my dream, although these watches are exceedingly difficult to find.

Given the challenge of finding a watch that hasn’t been modified with since it left the manufacturer, many are flexible in collecting and are readily purchase watches that may not have all original parts, but include watches with replaced parts from another watch of the same model/period, such as bezel or hands. Perhaps polishing and restoration are just fine with you (and, Restored Vintage Rolexes Are More Common Than You Think), or perhaps not (and if you care, time to learn how to tell if a case has been polished). Some dealers, HQ Milton for example, appear to polish the vast majority of vintage pieces so cases look as new. Which may be just what you would like.

By expanding the condition of pieces you collect, such as to those that are polished or have service parts, perhaps have been relumed, you’ll both find it simpler to find a watch, and those you find will be less costly as well. The downside is, of course, that the set of customers that would later be interested in purchasing your watch will be (at least slightly) smaller than it would be otherwise – with the impact being greatest on specific types of vintage where originality is prized. But for many watches, restoration will be required at some point in their lifetimes. A good example of this is lume (radium, tritium or otherwise), which over time will degrade and eventually flake off, which is often seen in older pieces. Those delicate luminous hands that have no metal backing…that lume won’t survive forever.

An interesting read on modified watches is a Hodinkee article on Christie’s auction of the Patek ref.530 with black dial. This watch was born with a black dial, and sold at auction in 2004 with a silver dial for just over $30K. The watch then went back on the block with different black dial, selling for $416K in the May 2017 Geneva auction. The good news? The disclosure of the background by Christie’s, something you might not get from others.

Unfortunately, the seller may know that they are offering something other than what they advertise, and/or will conveniently leave out pertinent information (a restored dial, which can look good), or perhaps simply don’t know otherwise. This doesn’t just apply to sellers on forums or eBay (with even perfect feedback scores), but also holds true for the dealers and auction houses with seemingly sparkling reputations. There absolutely are well-known dealers and large auction houses that sell trash, and don’t make any efforts to tell you what you are getting.

Don’t take this to mean that it is only around the sale of high-value pieces that people may bend the truth. Even on the smallest of deals, it isn’t unusual to hear sellers advertise a watch with a “dial in original condition without any flaws.” We have to translate their statement that “the matching tritium hands and lume plots have achieved achieved a wonderful golden coloration and show no lume degradation,” means that the hands are service replacements, then relumed to color-match the dial.

Read the FAQ on researching a vintage watch for sale for pointers on areas to focus for a particular watch.

One of the most important ways to reduce your risk is through building contacts throughout the watch community. The more people you know, the better. There are too many pieces sold of dubious origin, and all too often you need to be well-connected to sort the good from the bad. I no longer expect sellers (or most anyone) to voluntarily share any information, and I assume there is a reasonable chance that the seller will stretch or hide the truth, or simply lie. And well-known dealers do mess with watches (swap dials, switch bezels, have parts made for them, have serial numbers added to watches that weren’t born with them, etc.) and don’t mention anything about it. It’s the sad (semi-secret) of the industry. As a result, the most important thing you can do is educate yourself.

I recommend visiting watch forums, where there are experts (that are hobbyist collectors) that are often the most knowledgeable in the field, and trying your best to find professionals who act as advisors in navigating this (insane) hobby. Unfortunately, it is incredibly difficult in this business to find experts (really dealers) that haven’t messed around with watches…swapping dials, recutting cases, and so on. It’s completely disappointing, and unfortunately the norm. You’ll hear lots of dealer names commonly referenced as one to trust, and I don’t trust any of them.

Check out our FAQ on authenicating a vintage watch to learn more about which manufacturers provide certificates and extracts.

What to do after your watch arrives

We like to document stuff. A lot. When we receive a watch (which signature should be required), if there are dings or dents in the box, we take pictures. Open the box, then take some more. Then we make sure the watch is as described – if the numbers match, if it is running (or not), what is included, etc. Then we look to experts such as our local watchmaker to give the once-over of purchases and best determine if it checks out in terms of originality or condition. We are pretty anal, and with many vintage watches our first stop after purchase will be a service. See our ‘Care & Servicing’ section for more details.

After everything gets the green light, we will go ahead and leave nice feedback for the seller, tell them all is well. We might let the seller know when we’ve received the watch, but not give the final OK until toward the end of the return policy (there is one, right?) if we want to spend more time with the watch to make sure everything is okay.

If you care about the possible loss of the watch, don’t forget to consider whether to add it to an insurance policy. It could fall under an existing homeowner policy (most insurers have a limit for watches/jewelry as a part of a homeowners policy) or a personal articles policy, which will provide additional coverage. You’ll want to save the receipt of your payment, take photos, and save the case number and movement numbers for your records.

Watch lawsuits and squabbles

I’ll leave it for others to decide what position to take on these different watch-related lawsuits. I’ll note that most are dismissed (but in the case of specific pieces, not necessarily because there wasn’t found to be an issue with a watch).

The takeaways? Get promises in writing, and it’s on the buyer to do their homework, especially given the role opinion and subjectivity play in assessing vintage watch condition. Oh, and check the comps, too.

Collector v Dealer

Dealer v Auction House

Manufacture v Employees (and…Auction House and Seller)

  • @perezcope in 2023 broke the story of a franken Speedmaster sold by Phillips to Omega at auction. This was the first time that the mainstream media picked up on any industry shenanigans…for some, about time. So you can not only read about this on the source (perezcope.com) and in trade articles such as SJX, Fratello, Rolex Forums, but also the mainstream media sites such as CNN, Fortune, Bloomberg…and after all other major outlets had posted news on this and there was no way they could avoid not writing an article, Hodinkee wrote an article as well (you’ll want to read the comments). One thing that seems that will never change…the lack of dealers commenting on events like this. You might hear reference to it, such as on the Significant Watches Episode 35 (at 38+ minutes), where the team talks about dealers threatening others if they talk about the watch and asking people not to talk about it. Dealers protecting themselves and their buddies at the expense of collectors…sad but the way of the hobby, and a bummer indeed.

    You will still only hear accusations of bad behavior by specific auction houses from Perezcope and in collector comments. Unsurprisingly, we don’t see any negative comments about auction houses in industry press/blogs, who are incented not to burn bridges with those that provide access and advertising dollars. As an example, SJX comments that “that alleged fraud doesn’t really matter all that much”, which in my personal opinion, is a painful painful to read. And the only quote in the article related to the auction house involved is provided via a collector:
    “You cannot blame Phillips for the crookery as they were not the owners of the watch and were most probably not aware of the games played in the background. They relied on the Omega Museum and probably were fooled as well.” There is actually no mention of Perezsope’s name (Jose Pereztroika) in the article at all, which seems like quite an oversight – both given that he is the one that discovered the franken, and that he notified the auction house in advance of the sale so they could take action. Unfortunately, Phillips said that they were not alerted to any issues with the watch prior, though they did issue an injunction against Jose Pereztroika in advance of his article.
    Some may think that the SJX site is influenced by their paid relationship for past collaboration with Phillips. And while there is nothing wrong with being paid to advertise, I have heard others suggesting that when a third party is paying a news site, the transfer of dollars makes unbiased reporting a challenge.

Dealer v Dealer

  • Stuart Kaplan, MD, Plaintiff, v. Erik Grovhowiak, et al., Defendants. Plaintiff “alleges that he entered into an agreement with Grochowiak to repair and sell a watch that Kaplan owned, or, if not sold by a certain date, return the watch to Kaplan. Kaplan revoked the authority he gave to Grochowiak, and Grochowiak failed to sell the watch by the set date but refused to return the watch to Kaplan, instead purportedly selling the watch to Wong for an unknown sum. Grochowiak also failed to return other watches and accessories that Kaplan had entrusted to him.” Grochowiak’s company is LCCG Enterprises, LLC dba It’s Only Time. Alessandro Ciani is also a defendant. (BC635468)
  • H.Q. Milton, Inc., Plaintiff, v. Jessy Webster, et al., Defendants. H.Q. Milton brought a successful suit against Jessy Webster and Hidekazu Matsuba, for “a temporary restraining order to prevent defendants Jessy Webster and Kazu Matsuba from using allegedly misappropriated trade secrets.” This after the defendants collected information on H.Q. clients and steered some purchases to Webster’s own vintage watch site, Oyster Palace. (Case No. 17-cv-06598-PJH, 11-22-2017)
  • EHSA v HODINKEE, with EHSA claiming lack of payment for a watch by HODINKEE (New York County Supreme Court, 152399/2022). About $5k in value…I wonder why this wasn’t settled before this point. Someone clearly is ticked off…

Dealer v The Government
This is a new one, a suit involving insider trading. So not a suit about watches, but rather involving a watch dealer (Robert Maron).

Collector v Auction House
We do not see as many lawsuits between collectors and auction houses as we do between collectors and dealers, due to the legal terms of the sale that provides auction houses with a greater level of protection, and the sheer cost.

  • Andrew Woods, Plaintiff, v. Antiquorum USA, Defendant. Plaintiff’s motion is granted, and Antiquorum was ordered to pay per a prior settlement agreement. (No. 17cv3803, November 6, 2017) My favorite part of this is that Antiquorum provided mafia collectible as collateral until they could make full payment.
  • A watch collector sued Antiquorum in Manhattan Supreme Court for lack of payment following the sale of his Rolex watch. The lawsuit, from Behrooz Sarafraz claims that Antiquorum also failed to pay numerous other customers and that auctioneer Charles Tearle admitted to the backlog in IOUs to customers. (2017)
  • When I first posted this next example it didn’t include a lawsuit, and I don’t personally believe shady dealing, but it was a situation that wasn’t well-received by collectors and II felt worth mentioning. It began with Christie’s Passion of Time auction (November 2023), a sale from the collection of Mohammed Zaman, starting an hour late. That in itself was unusual (and irritating when you get up at 1AM to join the auction online), but things really got odd when the auctioneer then announced a significantly adjusted estimate with the opening of each lot (not announced earlier, rather in-room). I’ve been trying to rack my brain for another example of when any lot estimate was increased at the time of a opening and can’t think of one…no less for *every* lot in an auction (if you know of any examples, please let me know). I can’t think of a time when an estimate was changed any time after the catalog distribution, either.
    In the end, 70% of the lots went for the low estimate, and post-auction Christie’s said “a third party from the United States approached us to ask if the seller would consider a third-party guarantee”. Trying to parse out the comment quotes lead me to assume that:
    1) Christie’s went looking for a guarantor due to weak interest in the auction, and
    2) the guarantee was provided by an entity that has been involved in auctions historically, though not watch auctions.
    With this guarantee, Christie’s then needed to increase lot estimates in order to drive prospective buyers to higher amounts in order to offset the amount they would have paid the entity for the guarantee.
    Again, nothing untoward here that I know of, rather just extremely poor experience for collectors through the execution on Christie’s part to have this at the last minute (well, actually beyond the last minute as the auction started so late..). The only issue could be if the guarantor (Paddle 1013) was bidding on lots without an announcement by Christie’s, which I would expect did not occur.
    Regardless, we now all have the opportunity to make Paddle 1013 jokes for years to come.
    *UPDATE: at the start of December 2023, Zaman filed a civil suit against Christie’s (he sounds like a joy to deal with, truly). That resulted in Christie’s sending a notice to all bidders not to pay for their “won” timepieces yet, as they are all impounded. Amazing. What a nightmare. If anyone can navigate the Swiss filing to provide more information on the suit, please let me know.

Auction House: Internal Politics
But beyond issues with a specific watch, we also see auction house financial questions. Again, specific to Antiquorum:

Collector v Collector
For fun, as I know we all like to read forums, you can read one about lawsuits regarding defamation on a board. No kidding!

Collector v Private Sellers/Smaller Dealers
This category includes experiences that collectors have with less well-known dealers, and we do see some sellers seem to have more negative feedback than others:

Sizing a watch and strap or bracelet

If you haven’t had a chance to try on a watch of interest, but want a sense of the size, there are a number of sizing guides available online. With these guides you can print the page on 8.5″ x 11″ paper and see the size of the watch and strap or bracelet. And if you already have a watch, there will be a section on band width, which is a measurement of the width between the lugs to determine what size strap or bracelet is required.

One good examples is Crown & Caliber’s Watch Sizing Guide.

If the watch is on the way, and you already have the measurements, you can start planning for what strap you might want to swap to using some sites tools, such as the Hodinkee Strap Finder (the number of watches is quite limited, but can help give a sense for some different styles.

There are a number of “how-to” guides if you want to change straps (and bracelets) yourself. Really not too hard once you get the hang of it, but we would advise practicing on an inexpensive watch just in case you scratch it up!

How to charge a watch strap/bracelet:
How to change an Omega bracelet to a strap

Articles on watch collecting

It’s always useful to read what others have to say to about collecting. Here are some articles worth checking out:
Hodinkee: Four Tips To Spot (And Avoid) A Restored Dial
International Watch: Collecting 101, How to Buy a Watch: Part One and How to Buy a Watch: Part Two

There are additional articles focused on specific manufacturers, but contain useful information that can be applied to collecting any brand of vintage watch:
Speedmaster 101: Collecting a Vintage Speedmaster
Hodinkee: 9 Basic Things You Should Always Look At Before Buying A Vintage Rolex
Rolex Passion Report: The Vintage Rolex Buyer’s Guide by Philipp Stahl. And if it matters, I’ll note that Orchi thinks this guy is a liar.

Checking the watch movement

Before purchasing a watch, you should always get a picture of the movement to verify and see the condition.

To compare the image of your watch to other movements, best sources include:
– The Ranfft Watches Watch Movement Archive.
– Online search engines. Simply search for movement (search movement, brand, model, even year) online using search engines such as Google, and then select the images tab for a nice way to get a quick look.

Just because the movement in your watch doesn’t match Ranfft image isn’t necessarily cause for concern. Make sure to visit other sites that can offer a wealth of information. Movement images are often included in historical overviews of a particular model or family, and are shared on forums, or on dealer sites for similar timepieces for sale.
For example:
OnTheDash Chronograph Movements (Heuer)
– Examples from the Valjoux 72 family
Omega Speedmaster cal 321 and 861

Vintage watch timekeeping accuracy

While vintage watches might not have the tolerances of modern pieces with new technologies, it is reasonable to have them keep accurate time. They might not achieve the -4/+6 second average daily rate specification of a COSC (Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres (COSC), the Official Swiss Chronometer Testing Institute) watch, but if it is of good quality and had been properly maintained, it is not unreasonable to have them running within 10 seconds each day or less.

Related, that when a watch is COSC-certified, it is certified at the point of testing (actually a period of testing), and once it leaves the factory, it no longer has any requirement to maintain that level of accuracy. But while you can’t expect a COSC-certified watch to maintain that level of accuracy throughout its life, it is possible that it may.